Martin Luther nailed his 95 Thesis to the All Saints Church in Wittenberg, Germany, on October 31, 1517. His biggest complaint was the selling of indulgences to free people from Purgatory. A popular Catholic saying was, “As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from Purgatory springs.”
Luther’s 95 Thesis was quickly translated from Latin into German. In two weeks time, the thesis spread throughout Germany. And within two months, it had spread throughout Europe. Most everybody in the church world heard about Luther’s 95 Thesis.
So, what do you think many people were thinking and saying? Probably something like this: “You know, this guy Luther has some good points, don’t you think? But, you know, he’s wrong about my church and my priest. Father O’Who is a godly man who cares for us sheep.”
And yet, the people in every church, with good priests or bad ones, were in deep bondage to a church system. The people had no voice. No significance. No chance to speak what was in their hearts during a church service. No fellowship during the fellowship service. At best, they were bumps on a log waiting for the head frog to croak out a sermon of sorts. And to top it off, the bumps on the log had to pay for the church, for the clergy, and for everything.
Thank God for Martin Luther. Thank God for Calvin. Thank God for Zwingli. Thank God for the revelation that “we are saved by grace through faith” and not through our works or church affiliation. But there’s more!
There’s the royal priesthood of believers, a chosen generation, a holy nation, His own special people (1Peter 2:9). And there is the “perfect man” status (Ephesians 4:13).
And the royal priesthood and the perfect man will never be achieved in the traditional church system with a built-in separation between the clergy and the lay people.
We need new wineskins!
Larry Who 
Larry, Larry, Larry. You just…can’t…concede… to the possibility of a healthy diversity within the Body as it currently meets and blends with itself and the community. If there’s a pulpit in a building you have to beat it up. You once cheered our intent to start a neighborhood small group. If we meet inside my house and Honey leads the scripture study, are we a church in a building? Should we meet outside, standing up, or better, walking back and forth so no one is in a chair and no one stands in front of anyone and speaks more than 3 sentences in a row? If anyone is “affiliated” with our small group, is that bad? Because, after all, where two or three are gathered .. uh, oh.. is gathering an affiliation?
Maybe your Father O’Who really taught out of the scripture without the pope catching on.
Luther addressed doctrine, not buildings or pulpits or chairs.
Jane, jane, jane, jane,
Actually, to be honest, I would not beat up the pulpit; I would light a match to it and burn it. And if I could, I would sell all churches and give the money to the poor…this sounds scriptural, as in Luke 12:33.
I like small groups because they are a starting place, outside the church and, who knows, members might be allowed to get involved and say something.
As far as diversity goes, there are no differences in wineskins between St. Patrick’s Cathedral and the Anaheim Vineyard Church and your church. Pulpit. Pews. And one man giving a sermon.
Maybe Father O’Who was teaching scripture, but … going down the wrong path will never, ever turn into the right path. It is still the wrong wineskin and believers will never, ever become the royal priesthood in that system.
“In God we make our boast all day long” – Psalm 44:8
Thanks for your thoughts!
-Sol
http://www.calebandsol.com
… but you forget that a priesthood is just like a brotherhood. All being a part… yet all having distinct jobs and responsibilities.
If we were all heads, they would go nowhere because the feet wouldn’t exist.
I just can’t help but feel a root of pain that seems to dishonor the Apostles and Prophets put in place by God almighty to lead us… I know it well because I fed my own for years. Honoring the man of God put in front of me has blessed my life. YES. He is the one behind that pulpit. He has been tested, tried, fired, tried again, tested again… and is well qualified to do so.
I’m tired of everyone wanting to abolish the pulpit. Maybe if we supported (truly) those called to preach and teach, we would be more fruitful.
I struggled for a long time with what I was called to do. I still do sometimes, but I know that right now, I’m called to support this man’s ministry in which I am a body member of (kinda a shin, or knee I suppose… lol). Thing is, because I’m obedient, that leaves him free to do what he is called to do. If we would all learn that… those who are so ordained to do mighty works wouldn’t have to struggle so hard with the 20 or so around them clamoring to do the same thing.
Will I preach again someday? Maybe. Will I write again someday? Perhaps. Does it really matter? Not really.
What matters is I am a part of perpetuating the truth of the Gospel of Christ.
That’s all that matters.
rebuilding ruins,
What exactly are the callings (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher) supposed to do?
According to Eph. 4:12 – “equipping the saints for the work of ministry…”
Think about this for a moment: We have CEO-pastors who do everything for the members in the traditional church. They perform weddings, funerals, baptisms, do the teaching, do the preaching, figure out the vision for the church, etc., etc., etc.
Now, where in all of this, do the saints do anything but sit down, shut up and toss money into plates as they pass under their noses? Hmm! Maybe, they get to clean the church, or do some ushering, or babysit children, but not much else.
When will the saints be equipped? Soon. Not soon. Or never.
Rebuildingruins.
“If we were all heads they would go nowhere because the feet wouldn’t exist”.
This is not the issue, none of us should be heads!
There is only one head of the church and that is Jesus Christ.
That pastors believe themselves to be the head, and that the flock also believe he is the head, this directly deposes Christ from his headship.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered dishonors his Head.
A man praying or prophesying with his head covered (v4) refers to giving another man spiritual authority over his head instead of Jesus. Doing such dishonors his true head, which (v3) says should be Jesus. We the body parts take our signals from the head alone. Having a pastor over our heads removes and dishonors christ!
There is only one head of the body, and that is not the pastor.
Gentlemen!!
“there are no differences in wineskins between St. Patrick’s Cathedral and the Anaheim Vineyard Church and your church”
Pardon me while I grab a pillow, shove my head into it, and let out a scream that would send Bin Laden running for his life!! There’s so much I could say but I’ll try to encapsulate it with AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!
There is one body of believers, scattered into every church structure on the planet and as many different, thoroughly UNalike preachers for each one.
And for the record, our preacher doesn’t use a pulpit and wears jeans instead of robes.
You don’t want to darken a door? Don’t. But don’t create one mold for all.
Ronnie, you and I are on the same page even though we may not be in the same ….. tent.
Thanks Jane. I’ve been in both camps for far too long. I’ve seen both sides of this. Until I gave the man of God in my life Honor and respect for the anointing and authority put on His life to lead a congregation (because most are sheep and need led in such a manner), God couldn’t use me. Instead I was a clamoring cymbal… loud… with many opinions… shouting to the world… with little affect. Now, I’m being mentored, being used. Was just asked to take on a vital role in the Kingdom… and doing so with correct headship (by the way, the Prophet is the head of the local church, headed by Christ, head of the CHURCH).
I’ve never seen God move so mightily as I have in my life since this shift in my life… and never had such real accountability either. It’s humbled and at times humiliated me. I’ve never been sharpened so hard in my life.
I’d never go back.
This from someone you believe to be a prophetess Larry. At least what you declared over me.
I don’t know if I am. I do know this. I am an intercessor. That is my role. I am also a pastor. Not in title but in role… and those I fulfill for the first time in my life in the way they are meant to e in the local body.
Instead of me shouting to the masses, you’ll find me with my spiritual kids at any time during the week… with the proper headship of my pastor (a real deal Prophet, and I know this because God told me, not because he proclaimed it, yet he wears it unashamedly) overseeing this. HE is accountable to God for this flock, and takes that VERY seriously… and I am accountable for my leading as well…to him and God ultimately…
And it is well. God is healing people, restoring people, and showing up big time…
If this is wrong, you might wanna tell God… because He is blessing our SOCKS off!
oh and pst. my Pastor… plays lead guitar in a band, has more tats than me (no worries, I’ll catch up… ha ha!) and wears jeans and usually black… just because it matches everything. LOL.
Oh and rides a harley.
And is one of the most righteous men I’ve ever known.
Yeah.
And no worries Larry, you calling me that isn’t the first time I’ve heard it… but it remains to be seen…
Jane,
Actually, there are no differences in wineskins between St. Patrick’s cathedral, the Anaheim Vineyard, and your church. Period.
All have a building, a CEO-pastor type leader, pews (or seats lined up in a row), even the service will have the same approximate order, all have offering plates of some type, all will have hushed-up members sitting on their gifts and callings like bumps on a log, all have a pulpit, all have a type of down-front altar, etc., etc.
So, where’s the difference in wineskins?
When Martin Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli brought forth the reformation in 1517, it was a reformation of theology. These men did not reform the wineskin.
In fact, they used most of the Catholic format which is still used today. These are the basic changes: the CEO-pastor turned around and faced the congregation, the native language was used rather than Latin, and the sermon took the place of the Catholic Eucharist.
Now, don’t get me wrong, there are differences in theology between St. Patrick’s, Anaheim Vineyard, and your church. I am not arguing that point.
Nor am I arguing whether or not your pastor, the elders, or your members are godly, Jesus-seeking people.
But what I am saying is that the wineskin is not different.
Ronni,
I pray for you and your calling, may it blossom and bring forth great fruit in the earth.
A long time ago, I learned a powerful revelation in that God works on more than one level in people’s lives. The Lord may instruct one person to join a certain church, and another one to leave the very same church. Both would be doing the will of God, but yet, their actions would seem to be in opposition to each other.
I do not look down my nose at where you attend church; that’s between God and you. But just because God has individually called you to attend a traditional church in this season of your life does not mean that this is the right path for the Body of Christ to walk on.
Remember: what you consider the norm today, being a protestant, was considered an act of rebellion before the reformation of the 1500’s.
What I’m trying to say Larry, is that if we are being obedient to God at that moment (and all that REALLY matters is total obedience IN THAT MOMENT)… then it IS the right path for the Body of Christ to walk on.
Saying it isn’t, is like saying it everyone is allergic to poison ivy. Some are, some aren’t. That is GOD defined. NOT man defined.
I appreciate your heart and I appreciate your prayers. I’m open to doing whatever God puts in front of me at any time, but I know right now, I am in the center of God’s will and it is pure joy and freedom.
Finally some details instead of condemnation generalities.
Larry, I have never even heard of a church organization with a structure of control you described. Unless … it’s like that church of Christ of Boston cult that was going on about that long ago. My daughter-in-law attended a Bible study during her engagement to our son. It was being held in the basement of a well known denomination but it was when they handed her a blank piece of paper and told her to write down her sins after which they told her that she wasn’t in God’s will and needed to break the engagement. She felt betrayed and was in deep tears. We had a long, good talk after which she felt less of a victim.
That didn’t keep her out of church. She kept looking until she found one that nurtured her and fit her expectations, one in which she could grow in grace and fellowship with other believers. No one controlled anyone.
As for buildings and program structure, how many ways are there to arrange chairs for people to listen to the Word from an annointed preacher/teacher? What do you suggest — trapezes? Cots? Treadmills?
I applaud your individualism, your freedom, your ability to grow and deepen in faith and devotion to God all by your self. Do not presume that your way works for me, or anyone, or everybody. Some are just plain lazy in their chairs. I am a participant. The preacher teaches me and on regular occasion, God speaks directly to me through him, a nugget of information that may not sink in with me in a state of such freedom of movement and thought that I would get just a tad full of myself and not hear him.
So staying away from a structured system can’t work at this point in time. I won’t rule it out, it just can’t happen right now.
I’m happy where I am and hope I am sharp enough to listen to where to go next and when.
Is this enough discourse on dissent?
LOL. That last line cracks me up.
Larry I too, can hear enough to leave when it’s time. I left a church after 7 years and with ALOT to lose. I lost all my friends. My schooling, my perceived future. But I heard God loud and clear, which is why I know I am where I am supposed to be now.
I do hear God. I hear Him clearly, and I can’t say as I agree with you because the spirit within me is grieving.
But that I must contend with.
You travel your road, and I’ll travel mine, and I bless you richly on your journey.
rebuilding ruins,
For my replies, look at my new (or upcoming) posts where I have used your comments as a springboard.
jane,
I assume that your comment refers to the other post, but I believe that I will answer this is an upcoming post.
Trapezes, cots, and treadmills. That’s really funny. I hope that others enjoy your humor like I do.