Click on following for earlier articles: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6 and Part 7.
Have you ever had a prophetic word spoken to you which made you grit your teeth and hope it was wrong? As in…really wrong?
“You’ve been searching for a home, and the one you’ve found, is not it,” said Jim Goll to us at a meeting in Charlotte, North Carolina.
If Honey and I could have chosen any prophetic word not to hear, this would have been the one. At the time, we had moved eleven times to seven cities in six different states in less than two years of marriage. We were feeling like the lost tribe of Israel, looking for the Promised Land.
Our response to Goll’s words: “He could be wrong, right?”
But he was not.
Since that prophetic word in 1997, Honey and I have moved at least eighteen more times to nine different cities in three more states.
Now, in each city, we have attended some awesome churches. Metro Christian (Kansas City, MO). All Nations Church (Charlotte, NC). Vineyard Churches. Four-Square. Baptist. Friends. Non-denominational and countless others. We’ve met and fellowshipped with numerous believers; all of whom we would have enjoyed to stay around forever.
Yet, while I was driving my pickup truck on West Broad Street in Richmond, Virginia, I had a quick vision. In it, I saw a white iron lung. It was like the machines which were used in the 1950’s to help polio victims support their breathing during acute polio infections.
There was not an individual in the iron lung, but instead, the American traditional church system was on life support. It was barely breathing. I looked toward the back of the iron lung, and what I saw there shocked me. The unit was not plugged into a normal electrical outlet, but rather, it was plugged into bags and bags of money.
As I looked on, a voice spoke to me: “Pull the plug!”
Then, the vision ended.
Later that day, Honey and I prayed about the vision. We felt that we were supposed to leave the traditional church system; and we did.
Now to be honest, Honey and I thought (like Elijah) that we were the only ones who were asked by the Holy Spirit to leave the American church system. But thanks to the internet, we soon learned about millions of others who had similar experiences.
Hey, what about the separation of clergy and laity? Is it scriptural?
(Continued in Part 9.)
Larry Who’s writings and teachings appear on this site on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. It’s a little of this and a little of that, all written to encourage and exhort believers in their Christian journeys.
Larry Who 
Hey, what about the separation of clergy and laity? Is it scriptural?
You know me Larry, and my opinion about this question. However the Lord recently showed me another aspect about this question which I had never seen before.
At the moment we are big BIG time on grace. I love my relationship with my heavenly Daddy. I know that he isn’t giving me hoops to jump through, or hovering over me with a big stick in case I get it wrong, and lose my sonship. I am blood of His blood, I have His seed within me and that alone is why I am a son, born from above. I dwell in the house of my Father and I am a free man, born free.
Because of all this I have no desire of the Law of Moses in my life. Nor do I have any desire or need of any other Christian or Church Law. I am set free from such silly notions of bondage.
Paul in Gal 1v8-10 says that anyone who preaches another gospel (of law) let him be accursed!
Gal 3v1. O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you…………………did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law or the hearing of faith…..Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the FLESH (Law).
The whole of Galatians end to end is an attack on fleshly legalism and its evils. Legalism is not just about the Law of Moses but ANY Law we make which we think improves our standing in God.
What about clergy question then?
It is simply that the clergy are the LAW MAKERS in the church.
The whole reason for leaders is to establish direction or LAWS, even if only for that meeting THE PASTOR RULES OVER THE SAINTS!!!!!
Obedience to the leadership of the church is regarded as necessary for our relationship with God. To disregard God’s chosen leaders is an act of rebellion against God. Whether written or not, this is how most church functions. It is a voluntary slavery.
IT IS A LAW WRITTEN IN OUR HEARTS BY CHURCH AND CULTURAL TRADITION. It is stinking rotten dead flesh.
Gal 3v10 For as many as are under the Law are under a curse.
Gal5v1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2. Behold I Paul say to you that if you be circumcised ( following Moses Law, or Leadership rules), CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING.
Gal 5v4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever you are JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW (even obedience to the leadership)……
YOU ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE!!!!!!!!!!
FALLEN FROM GRACE!!!!!!!!
FALLEN FROM GRACE!!!!!!!!!!
NO THANKS!
YIKES! You must have been really whipped or more succinctly THOUGHT so! Church appointed leaders are supposed to preach the Word. Period. They don’t control your life. What I think I’m seeing from a first time read through is a kid who doesn’t like what he’s hearing and rebels.
Check our rebellion to authority leaving the preacher out of it and see if you’re just plain resisting the sermon (correction of the Word) instead of the preacher himself.
That is his job after all, to throw the Word of correction at the listeners.
I’m getting pretty fed up with trashing the WHOLE assembly of believers because you don’t like the mirror of the Word held in your face.
Frank,
As usual, I enjoy your comments. I will eventually answer the question (from my biblical insight) whether the separation between clergy and laity is scriptural. Because no matter how many experiences I have, it still comes down to what’s in the Word.
Jane,
I also enjoy your comments. You are the best at jumping in and stirring things up. I love that about you.
Rather than answer specifics on your disagreement with Frank, such as: “Church appointed leaders are supposed to preach the Word. Period.”
I’ll wait and do it in my writing.
janebrock.
Oops, Sorry! I certainly hit a raw nerve there didn’t I?
That sure is one harsh personal judgement you’ve made on me. However, it goes with the territory and I have had far worse. The problem is that it is a million miles from the truth.
All I did was present an entirely biblical perspective of Law versus Grace. ie if we are justified by law we have fallen from grace, and you get steaming mad at me??????
Church leadership equates to authority, authority equates to law. Can it be said any other way?
Countless churches even publish books of Canon Law or catechism, ie. rules on how to be a christian or how to behave in church. Yet the bible makes it clear that Law and Grace are mutually exclusive.
The source of application of that law is undoubtedly the hierarchical leadership, therefore, leadership = law.
This has nothing to do with how Godly these leaders are, or how wonderful a church is. I am just presenting a scriptural perspective, as I see it.
If this offends you then I don’t know what to say.
Frank
“It is simply that the clergy are the LAW MAKERS in the church. The whole reason for leaders is to establish direction or LAWS, even if only for that meeting THE PASTOR RULES OVER THE SAINTS!!!!!”
Frank, I don’t and never did go to that church. I saw that paragraph and my eyes rolled to the top of my head like the 30’s window shades. It took me 20 minutes to dig them out of my eyebrows. This told me you had had bad experiences with formal churches of name only, too structured with hierarchies. My response was spiked because I thought I saw “all” churches referenced in one statement. It just ain’t so. Some clergy resist the title and refuse to be addressed as reverend, the most formal being “brother” so and so. And they preach scripture, “love your brother, love you enemy,” good things. My most recent post on purity is from last Sunday’s sermon on one of the 7 deadly sins, lust. I added something from another brother I want to learn from. Click on the link. You’d enjoy it. He uses the Gilligan’s Island cast whose producer fashioned them according to the dirty 7.
“Obedience to the leadership of the church is regarded as necessary for our relationship with God. To disregard God’s chosen leaders is an act of rebellion against God. Whether written or not, this is how most church functions. It is a voluntary slavery.” S’cuse me? “IT IS A LAW WRITTEN IN OUR HEARTS BY CHURCH AND CULTURAL TRADITION. It is stinking rotten dead flesh.”
There you go again, Frank! By including the Vatican and Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and Amish (good doctrine, those, but they need to get out more if they’re so right), yeah, you can say “most.” I’m more into using diversity identification to keep the cold from the old from the basic. Lumping all into one ill fitting T-shirt with only one statement on it is a tool to prove one’s own viewpoint that maybe one has it together and the rest don’t.
Yes we’re a collective mess. But a single label serves only to tie and gag the reformers who by the way are more effective from the inside.
My preacher uses Gilligan’s Island, theme song included, not the Messianic brother.
Larry, stirring the pot is a gift sometimes with the same consequences as a curse. Ok, most times. Oh, well, 60 is 3 months and a week away. I get to shed even more cultural handcuffs in my long journey toward “crusty old bitty whose time is getting shorter by the minute.”
Doncha-know? Life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer to the end, the faster it spins.
Jane,
You are a hoot! Even when we disagree, I love how you disagree.
So Jane,
I presume that if God gives you, or any other member, a prophecy or a vision this sunday, you can freely stand up and speak it out to the congregation?
Frank
Dear Frank,
I accept my current congregation for what it is — non-pentecostal, preaches the Word though not all of it, keeps most of its members more than 2 years, falls short of my version of perfection.
“falls short of my version of perfection.” I can’t map my version clearly as it is a fluid image. That said, I was raised in basic fundamental structure, saved in Assembly of God, influenced by the peak of the Jesus People movement of the early 70’s, attended a medium, an instrumental Church of Christ, between my new husband’s Methodist refrigerator and the backward small town AG, and after said husband decided to be a Christian firsthand instead of thinking I had a shirt tail he could ride to heaven, we are now in the Bible belt attending a larger than we were used to Independent Church of Christ with a big, loud preacher.
That said, I keep up with the Messianics and have just had my vitamin shot at a Perry Stone shoutin’n’fallin’ conference in Chattanooga yesterday and today.
All THAT said, to answer your question, my Sunday congregation would be frozen in shock at a stand and shout tongues word (that is what you meant, right?) and I truly believe that unless we had a God sent guest to interpret, it would not go well. I know that, I accept that, I pray that God moves soon as Man can’t jump up and down and point and accuse the church and force it into anyone’s version of perfection.
I don’t know exactly your motive behind your question or if you’re desperate to prove that every single church congregation is worthless and should be razed into the dirt and thereby justify any criticism you’ve had for the Body based on personal disappointments or hurts.
Like I’ve said ad nauseum, you have to forgive and prep for change from the INSIDE, emphasize forgiveness. Running out the door and ranting about the evils inside falls on deaf ears. You could be technically right and incredibly ineffective.
For me and my house, dragging the spouse and family into the deep is arduous and slow.
Jane,
Good point about a message given in tongues. This is the one gift that is not accepted in many churches, as in very few.
Hi Jane
Please try to be a little more relaxed about what I am saying, and perhaps refrain from your personal attcks on my integrity. I was not attacking you or your church. I am only holding up the light of the Word of God, and asking questions that are triggered when I see a difference.
To quote my previous comment—–
“What about the clergy question then?
It is simply that the clergy are the LAW MAKERS in the church.
The whole reason for leaders is to establish direction or LAWS, even if only for that meeting THE PASTOR RULES OVER THE SAINTS!!!!!”
Your comment——-
“Frank, I don’t and never did go to that church.”
Oh but I perceive that you do Jane. To quote you.—
“All THAT said, to answer your question, my Sunday congregation would be frozen in shock at a stand and shout tongues word (that is what you meant, right?) and I truly believe that unless we had a God sent guest to interpret, it would not go well. I know that, I accept that, I pray that God moves soon…….”
I perceive from this, that the reason God can’t “move” on faithful saints in that sort of church, to bring words etc as described in 1 Cor 14v26. (I didn’t say “stand and shout tongues” I said prophecy and vision) is because of the fear of church rules or traditions which disallow it.
You have pretty much described a typical Law or rules based church such as I referred to in my original comment. More respect is given to man made tradition than the Word or Spirit of God. The Pastor administers it all. He is the “Head” and everyone follows his leadership. By this definition he decides or controls what happens in the assembly.
Put simply, this is LAW via HIERARCHY, or leadership. I can’t define it any other way can you?
If I happen to see a significant difference between scripture and church practice, why does that make me angry and unforgiving?
Just so that you can put my “anger and unforgiveness” into context. My parents were not church people. I met the Lord somewhere between 45 and 50 years ago, on my own in my bedroom. I had a Samuel type revelation of God calling me, and responded in the total innocence of a child like he did. Apart from a few early teen years in an Anglican church, ALL the churches since then have been charismatic!
I have never been in any of the churches/cults you describe. I saw it all happen in these charismatic churches.
I love the word of God, and my thinking and revelation comes from the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, not from any anger or hurt. God started to speak to me about these things decades ago. The particular aspect regarding “grace vs law/ leadership” only came about ten days ago and I think that it is worthy of consideration.
It is really not wise to shoot the messenger before fully digesting the message. If you can demonstrate to me, the scriptural basis of my error I would be more edified.
Jane, I forgive you for accusing and misreading me. You are certainly anxious for the sanctity of the church, and that is very good. I just ask that you be a little slower on the attack so you can grasp somewhat better what I am saying.
Your and my bible says that Law and Grace are mutually exclusive. Law =Hierarchy, therefore doesn’t that also make Hierarchy anathema to Grace?
Frank
It still seems to me like you’re jumping out of the box, the church box, literally. “Too confining, don’t like some self proclaimed leader telling me what to do, how to think, making rules. Rules are laws and therefore evil!”
The Body of Christ is a mosaic of diversity. Some thrive in the box you reject. But because you reject the box, resulting in boxing yourself on the outside, those who prefer the structure are wrong.
There is street ministry, there is music ministry. Some clean toilets, some serve in a shelter.
Because coffee is harmful to me over a certain quantity, is it my mission in life to eliminate coffee from all of the earth?
Out of the box, there are boxes.
“Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves.”
Dear Jane
I don’t mind a debate or a disagreement, but again you are missing or deliberately avoiding the specific points I was making in the original comment. All you are doing is creating your own description of me and then attacking it! You never address the scriptures from which I make that point.
One thing I will correct though is.-
“Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves.”
My wife and I “assemble” with a small handful of others who also refuse the hierarchical system of church. God is doing good things in our midst, we do not operate under a rule book. We just try to hear in the spirit what God is saying. This is, according to my bible, what the saints are supposed to do when they “assemble”.
Perhaps you could tell me if you agree with the following scriptures.
Gal 3v10 For as many as are under the Law are under a curse.
Gal5v1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2. Behold I Paul say to you that if you be circumcised CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING.
If you do agree, could you tell me how they fit with church and Pastor based law or rules today?
huh…
Hehe… Pastors, Laity…
It is said many times in the letters what a ‘leader’ in the church is to be like… and well, you get to the part where their children should be ‘well behaved’ (paraphrased, of course) you realize that isn’t going to happen!!! -among other attributes.
What is scriptural sometimes needs to be tempered by what is practical.
For example. As a Lay-woman… do NOT ask me what Revealation is about. I can’t tell you. I’m sure some can. BUT. I can, yes, CAN stand up in my church if I want to, and share what has been spoken to me by the Holy Spirit.
There are times we need to think of the Kingdom of God as Living Waters…. with the capacity to move in the Spirit. There are also times we need to be firm with Christ as our cornerstone, not as an anchor, but our head. Both very scriptural concepts.
‘Tis why there are so many different ‘kinds’ of Christians, I think… to build the body stronger… however, jousting about who is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ I am convinced is a tool of the enemy. A guise to divide and conquer… not that I’m too into conspiracy theories. ; )
Fun debate!!!
Hi Cindy
Welcome to the debate!
Sorry Larry, I never meant to take over your amazing blog with this string. Sometimes a little comment just explodes in your face.
Cindy you said,
“however, jousting about who is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ I am convinced is a tool of the enemy. A guise to divide and conquer…”
Not really. Otherwise we would never find the truth. If you look at how the Berians in acts 17 searched the scriptures to see if these thing were so,-
“As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:10-12)
The Berians, unlike many others, didn’t just slap down new understanding, nor did they attack the integrity of the speakers. They went back to God and His word.
Paul’s reaction to the bringing in of another gospel of legalism to the Galatians was by our standards most unchristian and ungracious. v8″……..let them be accursed.” and just in case you missed it, “v9…………..let them be accursed” A double whammy from Paul!!
Paul was talking about the bringing in of “Law” to the church. This included any ritual such as circumcision. His suggestion for dealing with such teachers was a bit severe, Gal 5v12, “I would that they were even cut off who trouble you”.
In the Greek it is much clearer. Circumcision, really, give me the knife and I’ll cut the rest off as well”.
Some bibles make it quite clear what Paul was saying here.
Now to our discussion, if we can’t discuss the scriptural meaning of things without fear of accusation of demonic division then we are most certainly a feeble body of people.
You call yourself a “Lay woman”, but in my years of reading I have never found Laymen or laywomen in the bible. So I am a bit perplexed as to what they are, unless maybe it is another tradition of man which has displaced the saints from God’s call on them.
I am however glad that God can use your prophetic and visionary voice in the church. You are not a Laywoman, nor am I a Layman.
Just a thought, -perhaps a “Frank” definition of “lay” man could be -those who are asleep in the pews?”
Frank
Frank,
This is an open blog and I enjoy your comments. So, feel free to write. It’s not necessary to say, “Sorry Larry.”
Your comments are always welcome and insightful.
but Frank… I don’t need a debate to see the truth! You are a lively one though, and dazzle it all up, don’t you? I like that in a believer!
“jousting of right and wrong” as I put it, earlier, a poor choice of words… as well as lay men.
Laity came from the blog, (Thanks Larry!!!) and what I, myself would describe a teacher not studied in the university system. I am probably wrong in my definition… should have looked that one up, huh??? No trickery, no deceit… just my experience in my periphery. I… AM… NOT… A… SCHOLAR. ha! Nor do I have the time to become one! I am just crazy about our King and happen to know a little something about scripture.
However don’t dismiss the realm of possibilty that spinning points just may be designed that way. Sometimes I stare so blindly into these idealisms that I take my eyes off Christ. Then I realize the theology I am defending is theology keeping me from our King. That’s me. Theology, and law, can hang even the best of intentions up. But I like church. I like the people. They study with me, they love me, pray with me and even correct me…
For me, it’s beyond theology, it’s beyond law. It’s about my response to the Gospel, and my church’s response. Our reponse as a community. It’s organic, and it’s scriptural… see, I say that because you guys do… 😉 But really, it is!
You make excellent points. I find you highly intelligent. I am agreeing… with extension.
Larry… I am not sorry… 🙂 I’ve always wanted to hijack your renegade ship here! ~always, in joy…
Take care….. Jane… you totally rock in my book too!
Hey Cindy
Please pleeeeese don’t insult me by implying that I have some edicated inteligens up top, or that im a scolar. I resent that! I am just an ordinary believer who has escaped the institutional system, and is on a journey of exploration of the kingdom of God.
So by your definition having never been to university or bible college, I am just a “Layman”, although I hate the word, yuk. However its ok if it fits your understanding for the purposes of these comments. The reason I hate the terms “lay” and “clergy” is that they reinforce the pagan doctrine of a separation of status between those who minister in church, and those who don’t minister but mostly “lay” down and sleep.
If you check the scriptures, the ministry in a meeting was never meant to be done by a special “pastoral” class of believer from the front like a theatre or school, but by the body of Christ collectively, and no-one was excused.
The disciples were also known to be unlearned, nevertheless their “lay” understanding beat to a pulp the educated pharisee’s theology.
But it was noted, THAT THEY HAD BEEN WITH JESUS!
It is my desire, that my time with Jesus is what qualifies my comments, rather than any educated intelligence.
You said,
“I don’t need a debate to see the truth!”
So do you, perhaps, just accept whatever your pastor gives you, predigested? Do you not at least debate within, chew it over etc.
What is taught at any church may well be perfectly correct, however any Holy Spirit led teacher should teach only within his own personal faith level, and it would be wrong to go beyond that. This is why God burdens other people with different revelations in areas which have never been considered by others. I enjoy learning from those who operate in different areas to me, their understanding has been essential to my growth. However I always chew it over before I ingest it.
One of the “words” that God has given me more times than I care to count, is that I am a pioneer. My call is to go into the difficult places, and consider areas of revelation that others avoid.
Consider for a moment, the fact that for centuries, the idea of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts was denied by good and Godly bible teachers in most churches. There was hard battling for a number of decades of the 20th century before it became generally accepted in the churches of the UK and the USA.
When some unqualified layman like me throws another spanner in the works of conventional church, might you not also debate it to test it’s accuracy. Are my comments not worth testing from scripture rather than just denouncing as heretical like the gifts were in the past?
If what I am saying is true, then understanding it will bring another leap of freedom for the saints, even if it totally upsets the traditional church applecart.
To go back to my first comment, I was only making three simple principle points, which have yet to be directly responded to .
1) Law and grace are mutually exclusive.
I also pointed out that most churches operate with a hierarchical leader (ie. one who has authority over the other saints,) who generally directs the operation of the church as would the manager of a business. He decides what happens, he makes the rules. ( I never said or meant to imply that this man was anything but Godly.) These rules equate to “Law”.
Those who attend such a church are expected to follow these rules otherwise they would be regarded as being in rebellion, not only against the appointed leader, but also in rebellion against God. (I have already been accused of rebellion on this comment string).
From the above, I deduce my second point.
2) Hierarchical church operates by Law. (rules)
Putting 1) and 2) together I make a third point.
3) Hierarchical church denies Grace because it operates by Law.
This idea has caused a furore of objection, yet nobody has given a scripture basis for any error I have made. No-one has actually addressed the 3 points I make or my use of the scriptures in that particular context, even though I have repeated them. The objections seem to be based on the premise that “my church is really good therefore you must be wrong”.
I would really appreciate some wisdom on these three points.
Frank
Frank.
You.
Are.
NOT.
Wrong!
I have the Spirit here telling me you need to really hear this. What you cite in scripture is correct.
Just know there are adminsitstrative actions that happen by Grace. Administration IS a spiritual gift… hmmm… there are inventories online… all I know is that administration and music are my flat two.
I am, blessed, however, to have people in my periphery who are blessed with these gifts. It is what makes us more complete as ONE. One body under the one Christ God head.
When the Apostles went out to proclaim the good news… it was what seems to me at a dead run. the end was tomorrow… not much thought went into administration…. (Man, you don’t even know how much I disdain that word) But while everyone was out prophesying, teaching, speaking in tongues, empathizing (yup, that’s one of mine), evangelizing…
one thing became apparent. Jesus said to take care of the widows and orphans. He said it with the same breath that he said to go and tell the world. But it wasn’t happening.
There’s your key. there’s your WHY. Sure we screwed it up. (we, collectively as humans) But on this side of the cross, it’s not possible, to do it ‘right.’
soo…1) Law and grace are mutually exclusive.
YES! and organically, mutually compatable… I don’t know… my husband is a numbers man, I am an artist. Everyone tried to talk us out of marrying… no kidding… both sides of the family.. friends. but. 12 years. may not seem like the eternity we spend in Grace, but by the Spirit, it works. completely different. seperate, yet compatible. Why should this make sense??? I stopped asking, as nothing in MY life really makes sense until you try to take a ‘God’s eye view’.
2) Hierarchical church operates by Law. (rules)
YES! They do. and some, yes, there really are some that operate on Grace.
The last Church I was at I wanted out so bad I wanted to scream. The people were horrible to each other. But. (I always have a ‘but’ ;)) The Spirit told me to stay. And it wasn’t for me. It was for Him. God loves that church anyway, and he wanted to work on healing it. unfortuantely few were listening. Those few, however, including myself, gave some amazing church altering spiritual gifts to that church from God himself. When I gave my last gift, I was given permission to leave, and found where I am now. -which is another story.
point~ your right. the law binds the church. This IS scriptural. But what are we going to realisticly do about that. staying quiet doesn’t work… inspiring others to get out of the sunday morning box is an idea. And I can’t imagine a better place to fire people up!! to bust out the walls! This metaphor is all over in the letters and Gospels. we have a saying… a church is only as large as the congregation fills the needs in this broken world.
Hmmm… a church that isn’t about me. No wonder it took so long to find!!!
3) Hierarchical church denies Grace because it operates by Law.
YES!!!!
IF WE LET IT!
I’ve heard about how people don’t have say. that we don’t mean anything to the church.
I say. MAKE THEM. Don’t let the people in your periphery become complacent. you said, “So do you, perhaps, just accept whatever your pastor gives you, predigested? Do you not at least debate within, chew it over etc.”
I would love to see you ask one of my Pastors that question! I’m certain they would laugh. You see, Church is more than sunday, and an occassioanl Bible study. I take the word, and I push. I engage… not just with the Pastors, but the congregation… and let me tell you something.
PEOPLE LOVE THIS! We all WANT to be awakened!! Even pastors! Especially pastors! They didn’t take the job for the pay! People who give a damn, like you and me… uh you too Larry… I guess you’re still here, right? We are what will turn the tide. Would you want to lead a bunch of mindless sheep? No one would. well, I suppose some would…
Oh Frank! THIS!!! THIS!!! THIS is an exciting time! The sleeping giant is slowly moving from REM (sleep) to a slight slumber! Give him dreams to remember! Rock out with God and say, “Come, Let us adore Him!” and people WILL come!
I avoid conflict, yes, one out of personality, but two, because this also is an important time to realize who’s in the body. I think you might be suprised. Yes! let’s debate and dig in to the meat of Grace, but let’s not bury ourselves as the pharisees and miss that Grace as it saunders by! It dances around us at this very moment, this ‘circumstantial’ conversation.
This is fascinating, but I too am feeling guilty about Larry, here, although, I think he enjoys this… my e mail is cindyhan111@yahoo.com for further discussion. : )
Cindy
Wow
That was one full answer, not that I followed it all, but then that’s probably me.
You seem to agree that the hierarchical system establishes Law, and that Law is a curse, but you defend it?
Interesting you mention the sleeping giant (church) I remember giving a strong prophecy about that to the church about twenty five years ago.
I do not believe that the church will come out of sleep until the doctrine of hierarchy and its inherent legalism is repudiated .
Keep pushing the boundaries Cindy.
Frank
Since this is where you are most comfortable, let’s continue here… I have nothing to hide, nor anything to gain by e mail other than time.
I defend that we as a collective of believers can accomplish together, tasks we can’t on our own. I defend that I am glad to have people in my periphery that are scholars in the text and have spent a great deal of time studying it. I defend paying them a living for the benefit of their expertise, and to take spiritual care of the needing neighbors I am unaware of.
I also defend that I am a leader. I am a student. and I am the one who will stand before God when I die. no pastor will be there on my behalf.
The only law is Grace in my mind. You either are on the Grace boat or you aren’t. There is no gray area there.
Church law is the same as Ceaser’s. And I will pay Ceaser to feed the widows and orphans. Not saying you, or anyone else has to… It won’t buy your Grace, or mine. It is just my honor to do so.
My point is that the collective is stronger than the single saint because we are to be designed as ONE collective with Christ as the church head. We are designed to be relational with each other as well as with God. Paul talks a lot about this too.
If I took my computer apart I’d have a lot of great microchips and components all having value, but when together I have an entirely different tool. It connects me to other people who make me stronger.
I have no ‘will’ to ‘push’ boundaries… I am out to destroy them. There is no place for boundaries when it comes to Faith.
Boundaries are designed to keep people out and that is exactly what pissed Christ off in the Temple.
We don’t need to throw away our history, our heritage and who we are as a Biblical family to accept Grace. On the contrary, our family story from Adam to Christ is intrinsic to who we are today.
I am also in the understanding that I am called to change Ceasar’s Palace from within. One saint at a time.
I also understand that others are called to work outside the Church. I actually work there as well… My hope is that both communities of believers will understand and value each others purpose. As neither one is any closer to God than the other. It is a lot like the right hand wrestling with the left, another Pauline concept.
I like to think conversations such as these lead to more… and continually build bridges between the two.
I wish I could articulate these concepts with less ambiguity. Being clear and concise is of practical importance. I am however, as I mentioned, a very, very busy lady! : )
Cindy
Another meaty comment.
“I have no ‘will’ to ‘push’ boundaries… I am out to destroy them. There is no place for boundaries when it comes to Faith.”
If only there were more who think like that.
Frank
This web site is actually quite sophisticated, but for some reason it does not display properly when trying to view on my Nintendo Wii. If it helps, the console uses the Opera web browser and am forced to using the console for accessing the Net whilst my PC is away being fixed.
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